-ReinForce Alert - worldwide discussion

[sertore]

Dear RA modders, here is a multiplayer mission that we played yesterday night, experiencing some queer and not understandable behaviours.

Recapping our feelings:

• the Akula at 50m and speed 6knots, was detected by the Akula 2, at depth 505m with layer at 280m, from more than 10nm with all sonars (and viceversa)
• the Akula 2, at the same navigation conditions, heard the Harushio sailing at 3knots at more than 20nm
• sometime, during the game and without any apparent reason, all the sensors were blinded for few minutes, and was not possible detect other units even if located at less than 1nm of distance

This is not the first time that we experienced the stellar sensitivity of sonars with the new version of RA 1.1 MOD: maybe the environmental conditions have an unexpected impact on sonar performance? Or did you changed the sonars sensitivity for gameplay reasons?

Can you please check and let us know your impressions?

Thanks in advance for support,
Sertore

PS: to let the scenario playable in single player you have to edit it moving the units of side 0 more far from the AO: I did not do it to avoid to change something, possibly wrong, in original file played.

[CrazyIvan]

Сообщение от sertore

Dear RA modders, here is a multiplayer mission that we played yesterday night, experiencing some queer and not understandable behaviours.


Recapping our feelings:

• the Akula at 50m and speed 6knots, was detected by the Akula 2, at depth 505m with layer at 280m, from more than 10nm with all sonars (and viceversa)
• the Akula 2, at the same navigation conditions, heard the Harushio sailing at 3knots at more than 20nm
• sometime, during the game and without any apparent reason, all the sensors were blinded for few minutes, and was not possible detect other units even if located at less than 1nm of distance

This is not the first time that we experienced the stellar sensitivity of sonars with the new version of RA 1.1 MOD: maybe the environmental conditions have an unexpected impact on sonar performance? Or did you changed the sonars sensitivity for gameplay reasons?

Can you please check and let us know your impressions?

Thanks in advance for support,
Sertore

PS: to let the scenario playable in single player you have to edit it moving the units of side 0 more far from the AO: I did not do it to avoid to change something, possibly wrong, in original file played.

To: Sertore
>>sometime, during the game and without any apparent reason, all the sensors were blinded for few minutes, and was not possible detect other units even if located at less than 1nm of distance.

Probably, after explosion, part of contacts - washout from sensors.

Because of large distance - you can not receive the message " Conn, Sonar: Loud Explosion on the bearing XXX ", however, contact can be short-term is lost from sonar the control.

Check up this condition - any platforms at the moment (or before) washout sonars were blown up?


You write - >>> the Akula at 50m and speed 6knots, was detected by the Akula 2, at depth 505m with layer at 280m, from more than 10nm with all sonars (and viceversa)<<<


In test mission - I do not see such conditions.

What there it is necessary to look ?

[sertore]

Thanks for prompt reply.

About blinds of sonars we already supposed an explosion of something similar that did the washout the sensors: I am not able to reproduce the context to simulate the absence of sensitivity without any big sound before, but we will try to better report any further anomalous behaviour of this type.

About the mission I did a slightly change to let you able to see the enemy units (sorry for that, I miss you are not able to see anything with the original version of mission; please choose Akula II): I have to say that I tried to reproduce the extraordinary sensitivity of sonars in single player without success, but surely you can see the bad bug related to the mirror contact present on also conformal or spheric array on Akula II.
In any case you can check that the layer is not so hard like in the past (look at signature of Los Angeles, always present even if on surface and you are hundreds of feets under the layer).

I will try again, but I do not want that the change of sensitivity of sonars happens just during multiplayer games, when I am absolutely sure about the presence of queer sonars behaviour: maybe can you try the mission in multiplayer too?

Thanks for patient and continuos help.

EDIT: talking with Goldorak at Betasom, that participated to a multiplayer of our the last week, he confirmed me that was able to detect a Kilo at lower speed (<5knots) using the TA of a Seawolf from about 28nm; in the same game session I was able to detect an DE 212 (sailing no more than 15knots) using the conformal sonar of a Kilo Improved Klub from more than 20nm, and an IT 212 at 3knots at the same distance.
The issue seems to be finally related to the multiplayer environment and not reproducible in a single player mission.
Hope this help anyway to investigate about the problem.

EDIT2: Von Faust suggested a possible explanation of sonar washout: is it possible that the active ping of near sonobuoys can blind the sonar screens for few minutes? Unfortunately, about the improved sonar sensitivity, he confirmed that in single player everything works fine: again, seems that the issue is present in multiplayer session only.

[CrazyIvan]

OK - I understand concerning a sonars problem in the MULTIPLAYER.

However I can not say yet now - whether we can check up multiplay game through debbuger to copying noise signatures and other data, necessary for investigation this problem.

You played these missions on the original 104 versions, or LWAMi mod?

It is necessary to understand - is stock a problem, or introduced bug during modification game.

[goldorak]

Сообщение от CrazyIvan

OK - I understand concerning a sonars problem in the MULTIPLAYER.

However I can not say yet now - whether we can check up multiplay game through debbuger to copying noise signatures and other data, necessary for investigation this problem.

You played these missions on the original 104 versions, or LWAMi mod?

It is necessary to understand - is stock a problem, or introduced bug during modification game.

The missions sertore is refering to, the one played yesterday and the one played last week when I participated were both played with RA 1.1 final.

[sertore]

Сообщение от CrazyIvan

OK - I understand concerning a sonars problem in the MULTIPLAYER.

However I can not say yet now - whether we can check up multiplay game through debbuger to copying noise signatures and other data, necessary for investigation this problem.

You played these missions on the original 104 versions, or LWAMi mod?

It is necessary to understand - is stock a problem, or introduced bug during modification game.

As far as I know, we did not see this type of issue before, even on the first version of RA 1.1, where we found rather the sonar sensitivity a little poor: this is why my first question was - "Did you change the sonars sensitivity for gameplay reasons?".

At the moment we are confident that this type of issue was introduced by the last version of RA 1.1, the newest one, while the old ones work fine, like the stock game patched 1.04 and the LWAMI modded game.

We will perform some tries, playing the same mission with the previous version of RA 1.1, letting you know the result.

Thanks.

[cayman]

to CrazyIvan
AIP subs engine shift mechanism?
In Collins type 212...cause you use Akula shipcontrol interface, can't find a shift button between the diesel engine and the electric engine, so , how is it works?

[dd149]

We understand the the sound model was substantially changed for the last version of RA 1.1., but why should it only affect multiplayer games, another bug in the navsimengine?

[whiskey111]

I'm trying to download the mod but server dosn't response at all. Is there any alternative source of downloading ?

[dd149]

Сообщение от whiskey111

I'm trying to download the mod but server dosn't response at all. Is there any alternative source of downloading ?

It seems to be working on my end, do you have firewall, provider restrictions to access it?

[PJB]

Error found in manual it says W55 warhead is 500KG TNT. After looking in DB it has a weapons range of 500000. I looked in net and discovered that the W55 warhead is a nuke. No big error just that in Seawolves Virtual Navy we have a no nuke policy unless authorized( like in real life). The UUM-44 is now on our nuke list. Maybe a future manual fix. Still a great mod you guys have. Also been reading that many multi player matches are happening. Maybe someone is up to the challange to take on the seawolves in a friendly little war. Also one of our members has made and installer that installs RA so that it is JGSME friendly.

CAPT PJB
FC 6th Fleet SVN

[CrazyIvan]

Сообщение от PJB

Error found in manual it says W55 warhead is 500KG TNT. After looking in DB it has a weapons range of 500000. I looked in net and discovered that the W55 warhead is a nuke. No big error just that in Seawolves Virtual Navy we have a no nuke policy unless authorized( like in real life). The UUM-44 is now on our nuke list. Maybe a future manual fix. Still a great mod you guys have. Also been reading that many multi player matches are happening. Maybe someone is up to the challange to take on the seawolves in a friendly little war. Also one of our members has made and installer that installs RA so that it is JGSME friendly.

CAPT PJB
FC 6th Fleet SVN

From "!DWX_RA_1_1_OPFOR_INFO.TXT" document (attached in RA mod Archive) :

The database is edited specially.
As the hard coded physics of game works incorrectly, some inputs in a database were specially edited. That that you see in a Database - not mistakes.

[PJB]

Сообщение от CrazyIvan

From "!DWX_RA_1_1_OPFOR_INFO.TXT" document (attached in RA mod Archive) :

The database is edited specially.
As the hard coded physics of game works incorrectly, some inputs in a database were specially edited. That that you see in a Database - not mistakes.

DB is correct i just meant the manual says the warhead is 500 kg TNT but it is 5 KT nuke. It works correctly in game just at SVN we dont allow nukes unless in mission and 1 player found this weapon very good, too good for 500 kg TNT. So i checked DB and discovered it is nuke weapon. Maybe fix for manual at some later time. Not a real bug just thought you might want to know this.

[CrazyIvan]

Сообщение от PJB

DB is correct i just meant the manual says the warhead is 500 kg TNT but it is 5 KT nuke. It works correctly in game just at SVN we dont allow nukes unless in mission and 1 player found this weapon very good, too good for 500 kg TNT. So i checked DB and discovered it is nuke weapon. Maybe fix for manual at some later time. Not a real bug just thought you might want to know this.

No. Many types of the weapon are used conventional warheads -SS-N-21 Sampson, AS-15 Kent (Kh-65 ALCM) UUM-44, etc.etc.
And Tomahawk (TLAM) - is capable to carry nuclear payload. But it is not established in the game purposes.

[whiskey111]

-dd149-
Maybe provider restrictions. Any chance to upload it on rapidshare or something like this ?

[cayman]

MPUAV, US NAVY really work on something
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/how/st...cormorant.html

[sertore]

We tried to play again the test mission I sent you yesterday: apart for a CTD due to a simnavalengine error, already happened in the past for which I am waiting more details from who hosted the game, I can confirm that the role of layer is really downgraded.
The Akula II under the layer is able to hear all the 5 frequencies on TA of a 688 FLTIII at surface at 5knots, and at least 2 frequencies on conformal (the 2 submarine were at 5nm one from other).

No more news about high sonar range due to the stated CTD: I will send you the error detail as soon as I will receive it.

EDIT: here is the stack trace for yesterday CTD, got just after the hit of our AOR by a missile launched by the naval unit appeared after Tu-Bear approaching in the mission I sent you:

Applicazione che ha provocato l'errore dangerouswaters.exe, versione 0.1.0.4
modulo che ha provocato l'errore navalsimengine.dll, versione 0.1.0.5, indirizzo errore 0x0003ab1b.

0000: 41 70 70 6c 69 63 61 74 Applicat
0008: 69 6f 6e 20 46 61 69 6c ion Fail
0010: 75 72 65 20 20 64 61 6e ure dan
0018: 67 65 72 6f 75 73 77 61 gerouswa
0020: 74 65 72 73 2e 65 78 65 ters.exe
0028: 20 30 2e 31 2e 30 2e 34 0.1.0.4
0030: 20 69 6e 20 6e 61 76 61 in nava
0038: 6c 73 69 6d 65 6e 67 69 lsimengi
0040: 6e 65 2e 64 6c 6c 20 30 ne.dll 0
0048: 2e 31 2e 30 2e 35 20 61 .1.0.5 a
0050: 74 20 6f 66 66 73 65 74 t offset
0058: 20 30 30 30 33 61 62 31 0003ab1
0060: 62 0d 0a b..

This is an usual message that we get in case of CTD: hope can help in discover something possible wrong.
Thanks in advance for any help or suggestion.

[CrazyIvan]

Сообщение от sertore

We tried to play again the test mission I sent you yesterday: apart for a CTD due to a simnavalengine error, already happened in the past for which I am waiting more details from who hosted the game, I can confirm that the role of layer is really downgraded.
The Akula II under the layer is able to hear all the 5 frequencies on TA of a 688 FLTIII at surface at 5knots, and at least 2 frequencies on conformal (the 2 submarine were at 5nm one from other).

No more news about high sonar range due to the stated CTD: I will send you the error detail as soon as I will receive it.

EDIT: here is the stack trace for yesterday CTD, got just after the hit of our AOR by a missile launched by the naval unit appeared after Tu-Bear approaching in the mission I sent you:

Applicazione che ha provocato l'errore dangerouswaters.exe, versione 0.1.0.4
modulo che ha provocato l'errore navalsimengine.dll, versione 0.1.0.5, indirizzo errore 0x0003ab1b.

0000: 41 70 70 6c 69 63 61 74 Applicat
0008: 69 6f 6e 20 46 61 69 6c ion Fail
0010: 75 72 65 20 20 64 61 6e ure dan
0018: 67 65 72 6f 75 73 77 61 gerouswa
0020: 74 65 72 73 2e 65 78 65 ters.exe
0028: 20 30 2e 31 2e 30 2e 34 0.1.0.4
0030: 20 69 6e 20 6e 61 76 61 in nava
0038: 6c 73 69 6d 65 6e 67 69 lsimengi
0040: 6e 65 2e 64 6c 6c 20 30 ne.dll 0
0048: 2e 31 2e 30 2e 35 20 61 .1.0.5 a
0050: 74 20 6f 66 66 73 65 74 t offset
0058: 20 30 30 30 33 61 62 31 0003ab1
0060: 62 0d 0a b..

This is an usual message that we get in case of CTD: hope can help in discover something possible wrong.
Thanks in advance for any help or suggestion.

I can not receive such CTD.
In the given mission - AOT is destroyed (killed) by a SSM-1B missile. CTD - does not occur.

Further - I blocked generation of the Japanese ship from group, and killed
AOT from a Bear with Yakhont or Kh-65.
Any CTD I do not receive.


As it is absolutely not clear - you do not write, from which missile type occurs CTD.
Who on whom shoots?

Probably following the patch will correct it - as I use the doctrines and database made for coming updating.

[sertore]

Сообщение от CrazyIvan

I can not receive such CTD.
In the given mission - AOT is destroyed (killed) by a SSM-1B missile. CTD - does not occur.

Further - I blocked generation of the Japanese ship from group, and killed
AOT from a Bear with Yakhont or Kh-65.
Any CTD I do not receive.


As it is absolutely not clear - you do not write, from which missile type occurs CTD.
Who on whom shoots?

Probably following the patch will correct it - as I use the doctrines and database made for coming updating.

After your checks, reinstalled the game from scratch, original + patch 1.04, RA 1.1 FINAL then, replayed mission and no CTD occured: probably corrupted installation on host happened.

Therefore, in tonight mission an Akula II at 8knots heard on TA with 2 frequencies a Lada at 4knots at more than 20nm, under the layer both: if one of units, Akula or Lada, cross the layer contacts correctly disappeared.

Is it correct a so high sonar sensitivity?

Find attached the mission: focus your attention on Akula II and Lada only, hoping to get inital positions more or less at 20nm one to the other (try sometimes or edit mission to get the desidered initial position).

Please let me know if I can do something to help you in reproducing extraordinary sonar sensitivity.

Obviously I mean all in multiplayer session only, single player works fine: after some tests, it seems to us that the SS and the SSK in multiplayer makes a lot of noise as soon as you start the engine, even if just at 1 or 2 knots... but this is just a feeling, maybe totally wrong.

Thanks.

[suBB]

Сообщение от sertore

After your checks, reinstalled the game from scratch, original + patch 1.04, RA 1.1 FINAL then, replayed mission and no CTD occured: probably corrupted installation on host happened.

Therefore, in tonight mission an Akula II at 8knots heard on TA with 2 frequencies a Lada at 4knots at more than 20nm, under the layer both: if one of units, Akula or Lada, cross the layer contacts correctly disappeared.

Is it correct a so high sonar sensitivity?

Find attached the mission: focus your attention on Akula II and Lada only, hoping to get inital positions more or less at 20nm one to the other (try sometimes or edit mission to get the desidered initial position).

Please let me know if I can do something to help you in reproducing extraordinary sonar sensitivity.

Obviously I mean all in multiplayer session only, single player works fine: after some tests, it seems to us that the SS and the SSK in multiplayer makes a lot of noise as soon as you start the engine, even if just at 1 or 2 knots... but this is just a feeling, maybe totally wrong.

Thanks.

Hey,

1st off, want to say thanks to Crazy Ivan and RA team for such an incredible mod. I've yet to play it due to a busy schedule, but I trust Crazy Ivan and Team for quality product.

2nd.. regarding detection ranges, your SSP & bottom type affects how well / poor passive and active detection are made. Good chance is what you are seeing is normal, and you are using a bottom limited SSP, where really there isn't anywhere a submarine can hide(no layer); nothing to do with the mod itself.

If you want the affects of a layer, then choose either Convergence zone or surface duct SSP. If not, then use bottom limited.

enjoy

suBB